PONTIAC (WWJ) -- A key witness was peppered with questions from the prosecution and the defense on day three of the trial for Jennifer Crumbley, mother of the Oxford High School mass shooter.
The school's former counselor, Shawn Hopkins testified about multiple interactions and emails he had regarding then 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley's concerning behavior leading up to the deadly November, 2021, shootings.
In regard to the meeting he had with Ethan and his parents the morning of the shooting, Hopkins was asked by Oakland County Prosecutor Marc Keast to describe Jennifer Crumbley's demeanor.
"She sat down in the chair, felt a little bit distant...It felt like it was a little bit of an inconvenience to be there," Hopkins said.
Keast followed up: "In fact, you had indicated to her you had concerns about suicidal ideation?"
"I had concerns for his well-being, absolutely," Hopkins said, adding that he'd shared those concerns with Jennifer Crumbley prior to the meeting.
During the meeting, which also involved the school's Dean of Students Nicholas Ejak, the primary topic was a disturbing drawing Ethan had made on a math worksheet, including a gun, blood, and the words, "Help me," and "My life is useless."
Hopkins testified that Ethan told him he wanted to be a video game designer, and the drawing was a part of a plan for a video game. Believing the teen was truly interested in video game design, Hopkins told Ethan about a program through the school district that could help him on that career path.
Regardless, Hopkins said he thought it best that Ethan's parents take him home, and get him some mental health help; ideally, that same day.
Hopkins testified that the parents said they couldn't that day, that they had to return to work. so Hopkins stressed that he'd like the child to be seen by a doctor within 48 hours.
Hopkins said he didn't want to send Ethan home alone, believing that the teen could be suicidal.
"I didn't specifically ask them to take him home; I specifically asked them to take him to get help, and therapeutic help," Hopkins said.
Ethan asked if he could go back to class, and the parents were on board with that, Hopkins said.
Hopkins asked the dean (who handled discipline) if there was any reason, from a disciplinary standpoint why Ethan couldn't return to class, and the dean said no.
Hopkins said the meeting then ended "fairly abruptly," as Jennifer Crumbley asked, "Are we done?"
Hopkins replied. "I guess so," and the mom and dad didn't say anything when Ethan took his hall pass and went back to class.
The councilor said he told Ethan he cared about him, "because I do; I mean, I did," Hopkins said.
Hopkins gave the parents a referral sheet for mental health specialists for their son, and they left.
The meeting lasted around 15 minutes, Hopkins said.
A couple of hours later, Ethan would retrieve a 9mm handgun from his backpack and open fire on his schoolmates, killing four students and wounding six more students and a teacher.
During cross-examination, defense attorney Shannon Smith asked Hopkins if he believed it was realistic, in this post-COVID world, to get a same-day appointment with a mental health professional.
Hopkins responded that he can't speak for those doctors' schedules, but that he'd wanted the parents to try to get Ethan in as soon as possible.
But Hopkins also stated that he did not think that Ethan posed a threat to other students that day, telling Smith, "If I believed that he was a threat to people I would have taken different actions."
Redirect by Keast basically amounted to a recounting of everything Jennifer Crumbley did not tell the councilor during the morning meeting.
Keast: "On November the 30th when you met with Jennifer Crumbley, did she tell you that on March the 9th of 2021 her son had texted her that he was seeing demons and bulls flying off the shelf?"
Hopkins: "(She) did not."
Keast: "Did Jennifer Crumley tell you that on March the 17th, her son had also texted her that he was hallucinating?"
Hopkins: "No."
At this point, Keast was interrupted by Smith who objected, telling the judge she believe these are "leading questions."
The judge said she would allow the line of questioning, which then continued.
Keast: "Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you that her son texted her on March the 20th, 2021, that he was hallucinating?"
Hopkins: "No."
Keast: "Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you that in April of 2021 she had told a friend of hers that she thought Ethan was depressed?"
Hopkins: "No."
Keast: "Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you that she had referred to her son as weird?"
Hopkins: "No."
Keast: "Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you that she had never once set an appointment with any mental health professional?"
Hopkins: "No."
Keast: "Did Jennifer Crumbley ever tell you that his only hobby was involving firearms?"
Hopkins: "No."
Keast: "Did Jennifer Crumbley ever tell you that she posted on Instagram as early as June of 2021 that he had obtained his own handgun.
Hopkins: "No."
Keast: "Did Jennifer Crumbley ever tell you that the day before the shooting at 3 o'clock in the morning, she herself was researching clinical research, or clinical depression options?"
Hopkins: "No."
Keast: "Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you that she and her husband gave her son a Sig Sauer 9mm handgun just four days before the shooting.
Hopkins: "No."
Keast: "Did Jennifer Crumbley ever tell you that on November the 30th, 2021, it wasn't the first time he asked for help?"
Hopkins: "No."
Keast: "Did Jennifer Crumbley ever tell you that the gun that he drew on that math worksheet was identical to the Sig Sauer 9mm handgun that..."
At this point, Smith objected to Keast's characterization of the drawing as "identical" to the murder weapon, and the judge agreed.
Keast moved on: "Did Jennifer Crumbley ever tell you that the day before November the 29th, on that Monday, the day before, after the voicemail was left for her from (school employee) Pam Fine, she texted her son: 'Lol, you have to learn not to get caught'."
Hopkins: "No."
The exchanged continued in that fashion until Keast eventually asked Hopkins if he'd had all that information, would have responded differently to the situation.
Smith objected to this, calling it "speculation" and noting that, "Hindsight is 20/20."
When the objection was sustained, Keast asked Hopkins if he would've liked to have had that information, to which he replied, "Absolutely."
When Hopkins' testimony was complete, video of James and Jennifer Crumbley at a police substation following the shooting was shown to the jury.
In the video, James Crumbley can be heard telling police that the handgun his son used in the shooting was "hidden," and stored separately from the ammunition. Jennifer tells police, “I really wish we would have taken him home, and when the couple sees their son for the first time after the shouting, the mother asks him, "Why?"
Heard in the video, Ethan does not respond, before James Crumbley is heard telling his son: "I love you. I love you. I love you."
After pleading guilty to first degree murder, terrorism and other charges, Ethan Crumbley was sentenced to life in prison without parole.
Both parents face four counts of involuntary manslaughter for their alleged inaction involving their son, with James facing a separate trial.
Testimony will resume Tuesday morning.