Sometime last Sunday afternoon, Justin Verlander laid eyes on a box score from Detroit: "Less than 100 pitches, 13 punchies. It's like, holy sh*t. I love good pitching. I needed to go watch some of the game." So he cued up the highlights of Tarik Skubal's first real masterpiece: a two-hit shutout with 13 strikeouts and no walks topped off by a very Verlander-like heater. Typically, Skubal said with a laugh, he's the one going back to watch Verlander.
"Yeah, how many years has he played? 18? 20? Yeah, I’ve had 20 years of it, and I’m 28. So he got to watch one day of mine, I got to watch 18 years of his. So, that comparison, we can say, 'Tigers ace then, Tigers ace now,' I don’t think I’ve accomplished anything that he has," Skubal said Wednesday. "And that’s what gives you motivation to put your head down and go to work. It’s cool, though, that he says those things about me. I respect him a ton as a player and his leadership role, I've talked to a couple of the guys on their side and the clubhouse guy that he is."
Verlander is back in Detroit this week with the Giants, and working his way back to the mound after straining his pec earlier this month. He's still going at the age of 42, still aiming to pitch until he's 45, still as devoted to the game as ever as he chases 300 wins. He could be the last pitcher to ever get there. Skubal is pedal to the metal at 28, coming off his first Cy Young season and perhaps crafting another as he lays claim to the title that Verlander once held with the Tigers: Best Pitcher in Baseball. Would anyone really dispute it?
"Sick," Verlander said of Skubal. "That last pitch of the game the other day was pretty special."
That pitch placed Skubal back in Verlander's company, just like last year when he became the first American League Pitching Triple Crown winner (in a full season) since Verlander in 2011, and just the fourth since 1946 -- but who's counting. When Skubal's fastball sizzled past the bat of Gabriel Arias at 102.6 mph, it made the current Tigers ace and the former Tigers ace the only pitchers in the Statcast era (since 2008) to fire a pitch at 101.7 mph or harder in the seventh inning or later.
"Part of it’s just competing," said Skubal. "And anytime you get your name thrown in with another guy’s name and it happens to be his, it’s an honor. But he’s done it nine times, I’ve done it one time. He’s pitched into the ninth however many times, I’ve done it one time. So the goal is maybe in a couple years we’re talking about this a little bit differently, to where I’ve finished off a lot more games and I’ve logged 200 innings for the next however many seasons. He kind of set the standard, the industry standard for all that stuff, and you respect that a ton."
We caught up with Verlander on Tuesday for his perspective on Skubal, and with Skubal on Wednesday for his responses. They met this March in San Francisco when Verlander approached Skubal in the outfield before an exhibition game between the Tigers and Giants "to congratulate him on his success and tell him I’m a fan," Verlander said.
"You’re a little starstruck, honestly, what he means to this organization and what he’s accomplished in his career," Skubal said. "He’s a Hall of Famer and he’s been doing it for a long time and when you’re in my shoes, you strive to be who he is. He came over and introduced himself to me, which I thought was pretty special. He was throwing a bullpen the next day, I wanted to just watch — but I think there’s a little stigma of going into their bullpen and watching their guys throw (laughs). But I wish he was healthy (right now) and pitching because I’m pretty sure there would probably be 40,000 people coming to watch him play, even on the other team, which I think speaks to what he accomplished while he was here."
Verlander arrived in 2005 and helped lift the Tigers out of an era of losing into one of contention. Skubal is playing the same role now for the best team in the American League, which Verlander can appreciate all these years later: "I don’t think you view that as a role. It’s just that you’re part of it, and he’s a big part of it. Jim Leyland used to say in every spring training, if our All-Stars don’t perform like All-Stars, we’re not going to be that good."
"You gotta have some studs, and he clearly is that, and they have some others around him. But when he goes out there and pitches, they expect to win, and if you’re in a slump, he’s your f**king guy. He performs most of the time, and does it in an impressive way. From afar, it seems like he’s learning how to be the ace of a staff and carry it. It comes with some added pressure. But what the hell, it’s why we play the game. Like, you want to be that guy. It’s who you envisioned being when you’re a kid."
"I just got goosebumps," said Skubal.
"When I take the mound, I want to do everything I can to put my team in a position to win, and I want everyone in this clubhouse to feel that we’re going to win that day," he said. "I think I do that, I think I’ve got that respect from our teammates, too, and I think we play like it. And I agree, I think that's what makes a starting pitcher the term 'ace:' When they go, that team has a really high chance of winning that day.
"And that’s what this game’s all about, is winning. You can chase accolades, you can chase ERA, FIP, strikeouts, whatever, but if you’re not winning, this game’s not fun. I promise, this vibe that we have here, I could have pitched just as good as I am right now three years ago and I probably wouldn’t have liked it. Because we’re winning now."
Verlander, like Skubal, was knocked around a bit in his first exposure to the majors, as a highly-touted 22-year-old. He responded by winning Rookie of the Year the next season and has been shoving basically ever since. Skubal was touched up as a 23-year-old rookie in 2020, took some more lumps the next year and then suffered a season-ending elbow injury in 2022 just as he was finding his groove. Since returning to the mound on the Fourth of July in 2023, Skubal leads the majors in ERA (2.51), strikeouts (422) and wins (30) -- there's another Triple Crown -- plus WHIP and WAR and all that other stuff that he really isn't chasing.
"Just listening from afar," said Verlander, "hearing him finding his routine and getting comfortable and finding what works for him, I think that’s all really cool, and it’s part of your process of becoming an elite big-leaguer, just identifying who you are. It's been a lot of fun to watch his growth."
Skubal said that process of self-discovery "started in 2020, first off understanding what the big leagues are about and then failure, learning lessons, adversity, another arm injury, you learn who you are, you learn who you want to be, the teammate you want to be, the example you want to be when guys look at you. You want to have an impression around the league with your peers, too, with guys in the other clubhouses that respect you."
Verlander's favorite part of Skubal's arsenal? "Fastball and changeup," he said. "I mean, his heater." Skubal's favorite part of Verlander's? "He’s a horse. He’s big out there. He’s got a great fastball. I feel like he’s been fastball-slider-curveball, occasional changeup for 18 years and it’s worked, and that speaks to how good the stuff coming out of the hand is."
"When I was in high school, he was doing the thing where he was 92 (mph) in the 1st and 101 in the 9th. I can’t do that. I can’t pitch at 91 or 92 in the 1st, but to be able to do that and munch innings, I mean, you look at his MVP year, it was 250 innings, it’s crazy. He’s got as good of a pitch mix as anyone in the history of the game," said Skubal.
There aren't many horses left. As baseball continues to place a premium on relievers with high velo and spin rates while generally treating the 'third time through the order' like a plague, starters aren't being asked to go as deep into games. Just four pitchers logged 200 innings last season (Skubal came up just short at 192 as the Tigers monitored his workload down the stretch.) 15 pitchers hit that threshold in 2019, with Verlander leading the pack at 223, and 33 hit it in 2014. 20 years ago, in Verlander's debut season, 50 pitchers hit the mark, including then-42-year-old Jamie Moyer.
As he becomes something of a steward of the sport, Verlander is adamant that starters should be asked and expected to work deeper into games.
"100 percent. I want them to do that, I want them to fight for it, I don’t want that part of the game to die. And it takes some special guys to have the ability to do it," he said. "I want guys to expect to go nine innings, not to have to be the unicorn now. So yes, I very much root for that."
That resonates with a thoroughbred like Skubal.
"That’s what I strive to do every time out there," he said. "I want to make it as difficult as I can on A.J. (Hinch) to take me out of the game, and I think that A.J. enjoys that. He wants starters to pitch deep into games. The game’s changed a little bit because these guys that come in (from the bullpen) are the best they’ve ever been, but I don’t want it to be an easy decision for A.J. I want him to think a lot about it, and that’s what starting pitching is: You take the ball and you eat innings. And there’s probably a little bit less value in that in toady’s game than there was five, 10 years ago,. It seems to be a quality-over-quantity thing now for starters, but I think if you can provide both, that’s what you want. And I’m pretty sure all those relievers are going to be big fans of you if you’re taking down a lot of innings and making their job easier and giving them off-days.
"I take a lot of pride in pitching deep into games. I want to be out there for the sixth, seventh, eighth. The five-inning stuff — I mean, there’s going to be five-inning outings, those are grinder games, but I’m not too proud of those. I’m proud of the ones where I’m seven, eight, handing the ball off to the back of our bullpen and the game being over and us winning. I think that’s what’s cool, too, about looking at total innings pitched -- it generally means you’re pitching well, your team’s in the game and you’re winning, because if you’re not pitching well, you’re losing, you’re probably out of the game, you know? So I think innings pitched shows a lot more than just the number that it is. I think it shows that you’ve also been pretty quality when you’re out there."
Skubal is sixth in the majors in innings pitched over the the aforementioned three-year stretch. His dominance last season brought playoff baseball back to Comerica Park for the first time since the Tigers' rotation was headlined by Verlander, Max Scherzer and David Price, three of the sturdiest horses of their day. (They led the league in innings pitched a combined eight times.) The Tigers' improbable run to the ALCS, which included knocking out the Astros while Verlander watched, was reminiscent of what Verlander called their "magical run in '06" to the World Series -- "super organic and surprising" -- that spawned one of the most successful eras in franchise history, even if the Tigers didn't walk away with a ring.
"These guys (now) are all so young," Verlander said. "By the time '12, '13, '14 were rolling around, we had such established (players), we had stars and superstars. Skubal has turned himself into one already in quick time. You wake up and five years passes and you’re like, wow, Skubal has done this and done that, and you need some iconic moments, and that game the other day was one. And you think you’re gonna have some playoff moments. That’s what makes it special. I know I watched him shove it up our ass in Houston."
Skubal couldn't help but smile when he heard that, more praise from a pitcher he deeply admires. "But until I got a World Series ring on my finger," he said, "I probably won’t be satisfied with the first two starts in the playoffs. And even the last one (in Game 5 against Cleveland), I’m one pitch away from probably having a much different taste in my mouth going into the offseason."
"But yeah, the good ones like him post every year. It’s really hard to do, and he’s a guy that made it look easy," Skubal said. "I agree with him, though: I think the players that don’t ever get forgotten are the ones who win in big moments and the ones who have championships. He’s got championships, he’s got MVP’s, he’s got Cy Youngs, and that’s what a Hall of Fame guy is. He set that standard pretty high, and that’s something that as a player you want to chase. You want to be considered in that same (air). That’s the dream when you grow up.
"That’s why this last game was pretty cool for me. I’m out on the mound and you think about it and you’re like, '12-year-old me would never believe this.' So, understanding that it’s a reality and it’s happening -- just keep going to work and try to stack good days. That’s all I can do right now."
A reunion between Verlander and the Tigers has been rumored about for several years. He has expressed interest in it in the past, intentionally leaving the door open. Verlander's camp had brief contact with the Tigers this winter when he was a free agent, but Verlander learned that he didn't fit the plans in a rotation (mostly) skewing young. He (mostly) understood. He wound up signing a one-year, $15 million deal with the Giants, the same contract the Tigers gave to 37-year-old Alex Cobb.
"I try to focus on the business side of things, and it’s like, OK, I understand, they said they had some younger guys they wanted to get a look at, which is also fair. Then they did go out and sign Cobb, so that was a little confusing to me," Verlander said. "But yeah, I was a little surprised at the pretty quick, like, not interested. ... Nothing against Cobb. He’s had some great success."
Cobb has yet to pitch for the Tigers this season as he recover from a hip injury, but he's slated to start a rehab assignment this week. He turned in solid numbers the last three seasons for the Angels, Giants and Guardians, flashing his best stuff at the end of last year with Cleveland. Skubal raved Wednesday about Cobb's presence in the clubhouse, where Cobb's locker is next to Jackson Jobe's and two down from Skubal's.
"He’s been great for our clubhouse and great for me personally just to have a guy that’s been around and done it for a while. I love it, I love being around guys that have had success at the highest level for a really long time. And I think it’s contagious when you put that around a young group like us," Skubal said.
Verlander struggled last season due to a neck injury, and is off to a bumpy start with the Giants. But he feels better than his stats might indicate, which he acknowledged "is a little weird to say right now because I’m a little banged up, but the adjustments I made this offseason after my neck injury, it’s been night and day."
"The results stat-line wise haven’t been there, but I’ve actually been pitching a lot better than that," he said. "And I’m actually fairly happy with the progress I’ve been making. So, kind of pissed this (injury) f**king happened because I really was thinking I was right on the cusp of going on a good f**king run."
It remains his goal to be pitching at the age of 45, "as long as I can keep performing."
"I don’t know, if they keep f**king shrinking the strike zone and making guys throw 100, then maybe not. But I think as long as I can compete and be fairly good, then, yeah. I still love it. I still love the game, still put in the work that’s necessary, which is a lot," he said.
He laughed off the notion that he sounds a bit tired and said, "No, I'm really not! If I was tired, that would be an indication that it’s time to go. No, I’m completely willing to do the work. I enjoy it. I enjoy learning, too, and how adaptable you have to be, and that’s the thing. Through every injury you have to learn a lot, and what I learned last year about my neck has really pointed me in a direction that I think's going to allow me to pitch longer than I would have if it hadn’t happened."
Reflecting on his conversation with Skubal this spring, Verlander said it does make him feel old when the stars of today tell him they watched him when they were kids. But not in a bad way: "I think it's a rite of passage. I like it, I don't mind it all, man. Like, I’m still here f**king pitching at 42. It’s what you dream of. So, does it make me feel old? It makes me realize how long I’ve been doing it, which gives me an appreciation for it."
Could Skubal imagine pitching as long as Verlander? He gazed into the future for a moment, laughed and said, "42 is a long way away, dude. 42’s a long way away." He added, in all seriousness, "It’s a lot of baseball, it’s a lot of wear and tear on the body, I got a ton of respect for guys who do it, and hopefully I’m in the same position. Hopefully I’m 42 and we’re having this same conversation about somebody else, because that means I had a hell of a career."
"If I were to say like, 14 years from now I’m still pitching at an elite level, I would love that. And hopefully those (14 years) are all here. If you get to wear one jersey, I think that’s really special, too," Skubal said. "We’ll see. I don’t really think too far ahead of myself. There’s a lot of sh*t that happens, and the day-to-day stuff is where my focus is. It’s more like, I need to go throw a bullpen, get some quality work in, get a good workout in, do some shoulder program, hair cut and get out for the game," he said. "That’s kind of how I live my life."
Only a few more haircuts to go.
Skubal grinned, pounded his mitt before heading to the field said, "F**k, if I'm 42, I probably don’t need haircuts anymore!"